Can WD Red 4TB HDD's be used for a self built Server/NAS or only for "real" NAS (QNAP etc.)?

fahrer17 · 17. März 2015

Hi there,

as mentioned here http://forums.openmediavault.o…amba-somehow-not-working/I have the problem that my RAID1 keeps loosing one of its two HDDs.
When searching for a solution I thought of getting some professional help and asked my local computer shop around the corner to co-check my WD Reds 4TB for any abnormalities.
I picked them up today and he told me everything was ok but in his opinion WD says that these disks must not be used in a "normal" pc (well, my system is a self built little and energy saving pc running OMV and can somehow be called "normal") but are only allowed in "real" NAS systems (like Synology, Qnap etc. - whatever the difference may be. He couldn't tell me!).

The first thing I did when coming home was checking WD's homepage and couldn't confirm his statement. So now I want to hear your experience about that - what do you think?

Thanks in advance
fahrer17

ryecoaaron · 17. März 2015

WDReds can definitely be used in normal PCs. I used two of them in my backup server for a year with no issues. Even my QNAP TS-451 is a regular amd64 system which the reds are in now. People used to say the same thing about Samsung F4s. I have been using 8 of them in a raid 5 array for three years without a single rebuild.

I don't see a list of what your hardware is anywhere. Could be a bios setting or something simple.

Do you need realtime mirroring? Most people don't. You could just have a schedule rsync task sync the drives every few hours and avoid this problem all together.

KM0201 · 17. März 2015

Zitat von fahrer17

Hi there,

as mentioned here http://forums.openmediavault.o…amba-somehow-not-working/I have the problem that my RAID1 keeps loosing one of its two HDDs.
When searching for a solution I thought of getting some professional help and asked my local computer shop around the corner to co-check my WD Reds 4TB for any abnormalities.
I picked them up today and he told me everything was ok but in his opinion WD says that these disks must not be used in a "normal" pc (well, my system is a self built little and energy saving pc running OMV and can somehow be called "normal") but are only allowed in "real" NAS systems (like Synology, Qnap etc. - whatever the difference may be. He couldn't tell me!).

The first thing I did when coming home was checking WD's homepage and couldn't confirm his statement. So now I want to hear your experience about that - what do you think?

Thanks in advance
fahrer17

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He's a moron.

fahrer17 · 17. März 2015

Zitat von ryecoaaron

WDReds can definitely be used in normal PCs. I used two of them in my backup server for a year with no issues. Even my QNAP TS-451 is a regular amd64 system which the reds are in now. People used to say the same thing about Samsung F4s. I have been using 8 of them in a raid 5 array for three years without a single rebuild.

That's what I've heard so far.

Zitat von ryecoaaron

I don't see a list of what your hardware is anywhere. Could be a bios setting or something simple.

True - I updated my signature.
BIOS... Hm, it was ok for 3 or 4 months, than the trouble began... The BIOS is updated to the latest version.

Zitat von ryecoaaron

Do you need realtime mirroring? Most people don't. You could just have a schedule rsync task sync the drives every few hours and avoid this problem all together.

Hm, probably not - sounds like a good alternative! Will definitely check that!

fahrer17 · 17. März 2015

Zitat von KM0201

He's a moron.

Sorry, I don't get that.

Edit: Hehe, now I do: You said "HE is" - I read "HERE is"

ryecoaaron · 17. März 2015

Are you using the backports 3.16 kernel? I think a newer board like that should (if you aren't already).

How old is the SSD? I would recommend the openmediavault-flashmemory plugin to anyone using an SSD.

Do you have a UPS (battery backup)?

shadowzero · 18. März 2015

Zitat von fahrer17

KM0201 wrote:
He's a moron.

What @KM0201 means is the person who told you that WD Red drives must not be used in a "normal" PC and are only allowed in a "real" NAS devices is a moron. Most of those people are told certain things to follow or don't know any better. They are only interested to make them more money by recommending something you don't need.

KM0201 · 18. März 2015

Zitat von shadowzero

What @KM0201 means is the person who told you that WD Red drives must not be used in a "normal" PC and are only allowed in a "real" NAS devices is a moron. Most of those people are told certain things to follow or don't know any better. They are only interested to make them more money by recommending something you don't need.

This is correct. Sometimes I forget some folks here, their first language is not English..

To be clear, OP.. I was not calling you a moron... I was calling the guy that told you that a moron.

fahrer17 · 19. März 2015

Zitat von ryecoaaron

Are you using the backports 3.16 kernel? I think a newer board like that should (if you aren't already).

How old is the SSD? I would recommend the openmediavault-flashmemory plugin to anyone using an SSD.

Do you have a UPS (battery backup)?

The SSD is quite new, I bought everything in June 2014. My NAS usually only runs when needed, not 24/7. And therefore there is no UPS.
About the kernel - I don't know... It's a standard installation without any changes. I will check that as soon as possible but because of family duties this won't happen before next week
But I really, really like the idea of rsyncing my stuff instead of creating that RAID1!

shadowzero + KM0201: Yeah, I finally got it (and I think so too about that guy). It was more a matter of reading then understanding - my fault

ryecoaaron · 19. März 2015

Zitat von fahrer17

The SSD is quite new, I bought everything in June 2014. My NAS usually only runs when needed, not 24/7. And therefore there is no UPS.
About the kernel - I don't know... It's a standard installation without any changes. I will check that as soon as possible but because of family duties this won't happen before next week
But I really, really like the idea of rsyncing my stuff instead of creating that RAID1!

I would install the backports 3.16 kernel using the button in omv-extras. This will only help your board.

I would install the openmediavault-flashmemory plugin in the test repo. This will significantly reduce writes to your ssd.

I wouldn't run raid without battery backup and a lot of the raid problems I see are systems that do not run 24/7. I really think rsync will work well for you

davidh2k · 19. März 2015

I have one 3TB red in my PC running, 200 days + and counting.

Oh and here you got the smart data of my 5 WD Reds in a RAID5. Never had any issue with them.

Code

root@Chap ~ # smartctl -a /dev/twa0 -d 3ware,0 |awk '/SMART Attributes Data Structure/{flag=1}/SMART Self-test/{flag=0}flag'
SMART Attributes Data Structure revision number: 16
Vendor Specific SMART Attributes with Thresholds:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME          FLAG     VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE      UPDATED  WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate     0x002f   200   200   051    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  3 Spin_Up_Time            0x0027   179   177   021    Pre-fail  Always       -       6033
  4 Start_Stop_Count        0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       981
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   200   200   140    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  7 Seek_Error_Rate         0x002e   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
  9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   094   094   000    Old_age   Always       -       4450
 10 Spin_Retry_Count        0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
 11 Calibration_Retry_Count 0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
 12 Power_Cycle_Count       0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       981
192 Power-Off_Retract_Count 0x0032   199   199   000    Old_age   Always       -       980
193 Load_Cycle_Count        0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
194 Temperature_Celsius     0x0022   126   111   000    Old_age   Always       -       24
196 Reallocated_Event_Count 0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
197 Current_Pending_Sector  0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
198 Offline_Uncorrectable   0x0030   100   253   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0
199 UDMA_CRC_Error_Count    0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
200 Multi_Zone_Error_Rate   0x0008   100   253   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0


SMART Error Log Version: 1
No Errors Logged


root@Chap ~ # smartctl -a /dev/twa0 -d 3ware,1 |awk '/SMART Attributes Data Structure/{flag=1}/SMART Self-test/{flag=0}flag'
SMART Attributes Data Structure revision number: 16
Vendor Specific SMART Attributes with Thresholds:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME          FLAG     VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE      UPDATED  WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate     0x002f   200   200   051    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  3 Spin_Up_Time            0x0027   178   176   021    Pre-fail  Always       -       6100
  4 Start_Stop_Count        0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       993
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   200   200   140    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  7 Seek_Error_Rate         0x002e   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
  9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   094   094   000    Old_age   Always       -       4453
 10 Spin_Retry_Count        0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
 11 Calibration_Retry_Count 0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
 12 Power_Cycle_Count       0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       993
192 Power-Off_Retract_Count 0x0032   199   199   000    Old_age   Always       -       992
193 Load_Cycle_Count        0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
194 Temperature_Celsius     0x0022   127   111   000    Old_age   Always       -       23
196 Reallocated_Event_Count 0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
197 Current_Pending_Sector  0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
198 Offline_Uncorrectable   0x0030   100   253   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0
199 UDMA_CRC_Error_Count    0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
200 Multi_Zone_Error_Rate   0x0008   100   253   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0


SMART Error Log Version: 1
No Errors Logged


root@Chap ~ # smartctl -a /dev/twa0 -d 3ware,2 |awk '/SMART Attributes Data Structure/{flag=1}/SMART Self-test/{flag=0}flag'
SMART Attributes Data Structure revision number: 16
Vendor Specific SMART Attributes with Thresholds:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME          FLAG     VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE      UPDATED  WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate     0x002f   200   200   051    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  3 Spin_Up_Time            0x0027   181   179   021    Pre-fail  Always       -       5950
  4 Start_Stop_Count        0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       989
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   200   200   140    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  7 Seek_Error_Rate         0x002e   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
  9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   094   094   000    Old_age   Always       -       4453
 10 Spin_Retry_Count        0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
 11 Calibration_Retry_Count 0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
 12 Power_Cycle_Count       0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       989
192 Power-Off_Retract_Count 0x0032   199   199   000    Old_age   Always       -       988
193 Load_Cycle_Count        0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
194 Temperature_Celsius     0x0022   127   111   000    Old_age   Always       -       23
196 Reallocated_Event_Count 0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
197 Current_Pending_Sector  0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
198 Offline_Uncorrectable   0x0030   100   253   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0
199 UDMA_CRC_Error_Count    0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
200 Multi_Zone_Error_Rate   0x0008   100   253   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0


SMART Error Log Version: 1
No Errors Logged


root@Chap ~ # smartctl -a /dev/twa0 -d 3ware,3 |awk '/SMART Attributes Data Structure/{flag=1}/SMART Self-test/{flag=0}flag'
SMART Attributes Data Structure revision number: 16
Vendor Specific SMART Attributes with Thresholds:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME          FLAG     VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE      UPDATED  WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate     0x002f   200   200   051    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  3 Spin_Up_Time            0x0027   176   175   021    Pre-fail  Always       -       6158
  4 Start_Stop_Count        0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       989
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   200   200   140    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  7 Seek_Error_Rate         0x002e   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
  9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   094   094   000    Old_age   Always       -       4453
 10 Spin_Retry_Count        0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
 11 Calibration_Retry_Count 0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
 12 Power_Cycle_Count       0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       989
192 Power-Off_Retract_Count 0x0032   199   199   000    Old_age   Always       -       988
193 Load_Cycle_Count        0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
194 Temperature_Celsius     0x0022   126   113   000    Old_age   Always       -       24
196 Reallocated_Event_Count 0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
197 Current_Pending_Sector  0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
198 Offline_Uncorrectable   0x0030   100   253   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0
199 UDMA_CRC_Error_Count    0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
200 Multi_Zone_Error_Rate   0x0008   100   253   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0


SMART Error Log Version: 1
No Errors Logged


root@Chap ~ # smartctl -a /dev/twa0 -d 3ware,4 |awk '/SMART Attributes Data Structure/{flag=1}/SMART Self-test/{flag=0}flag'
SMART Attributes Data Structure revision number: 16
Vendor Specific SMART Attributes with Thresholds:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME          FLAG     VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE      UPDATED  WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate     0x002f   200   200   051    Pre-fail  Always       -       51
  3 Spin_Up_Time            0x0027   183   181   021    Pre-fail  Always       -       5850
  4 Start_Stop_Count        0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       971
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   200   200   140    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  7 Seek_Error_Rate         0x002e   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
  9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   095   095   000    Old_age   Always       -       4245
 10 Spin_Retry_Count        0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
 11 Calibration_Retry_Count 0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
 12 Power_Cycle_Count       0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       971
192 Power-Off_Retract_Count 0x0032   199   199   000    Old_age   Always       -       970
193 Load_Cycle_Count        0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
194 Temperature_Celsius     0x0022   126   110   000    Old_age   Always       -       24
196 Reallocated_Event_Count 0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
197 Current_Pending_Sector  0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
198 Offline_Uncorrectable   0x0030   100   253   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0
199 UDMA_CRC_Error_Count    0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
200 Multi_Zone_Error_Rate   0x0008   100   253   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0


SMART Error Log Version: 1
No Errors Logged


root@Chap ~ #

Alles anzeigen

Greetings
David

fahrer17 · 25. März 2015

I even have problems using my HDDs as simple drives (the "new" HDD couldn't be formatted and even was not visible any more in the GUI after a couple of minutes) I wanted to check everything from the beginning. So I installed the two HDDs in my Ubuntu desktop machine and the same happened again

Now I will test them again in a Windows machine and maybe in a friends OMV machine.

Since the chance that I get two broken WD Reds is quite small I already fear that my OMV machine killed them - can this be possible, e.g. when creating a RAID!?

ryecoaaron · 25. März 2015

Highly doubtful that OMV and/or raid killed them. If the drives are from the same batch, it is very possible that both could be failing.

fahrer17 · 25. März 2015

No no, it's not that simple unfortunately

I bought two Reds when building my NAS. When my problems started the only solution for me after a lot of searching and testing was returning the assumed broken HDD. Now I have a new one with a new firmware and that's the one that bothers me

ryecoaaron · 25. März 2015

Do they work as individuals? Or are they just failing when in a raid array?

fahrer17 · 25. März 2015

No, they don't. I can format and use the "old" disc but I already fail when I try to format the second. This happened with OMV and with Ubuntu.
I will post some screenshots as soon as I'm home again.

ryecoaaron · 25. März 2015

Can you dd the drive? dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdX bs=1M count=20000 (replace X with the correct drive letter)

fahrer17 · 25. März 2015

Hm, now formatting under Ubuntu was successful - it took about 20 or 25 minutes.

Zitat von ryecoaaron

Can you dd the drive? dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdX bs=1M count=20000 (replace X with the correct drive letter)

Code

rico@H67A:~$ sudo dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdg bs=1M count=20000
20000+0 Datensätze ein
20000+0 Datensätze aus
20971520000 Bytes (21 GB) kopiert, 6,43495 s, 3,3 GB/s

But access to the drive isn't possible: Creating a file or folder brings up the message it's read-only; lsblk takes 5 minutes or more.

Ubuntu's Laufwerksverwaltung ("Palimpsest") says the drive is ok but has two faulty sectors.

ryecoaaron · 25. März 2015

Try this since it is trying to buffer too much:

dd conv=fdatasync if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdg bs=1M count=20000

fahrer17 · 26. März 2015

Booting the Ubuntu machine takes quite longer than usual with the Reds attached to it and when finished the "new" drive doesn't show up in the list of available drives today. Moreover my ext4-formatting is gone :-/

Drive management under Ubuntu doesn't look too good I guess (see screenshot).

sudo smartctl -A /dev/sdg

brings

Code

=== START OF READ SMART DATA SECTION ===
SMART Attributes Data Structure revision number: 16
Vendor Specific SMART Attributes with Thresholds:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME          FLAG     VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE      UPDATED  WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate     0x002f   200   200   051    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  3 Spin_Up_Time            0x0027   253   202   021    Pre-fail  Always       -       3525
  4 Start_Stop_Count        0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       7
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   194   194   140    Pre-fail  Always       -       180
  7 Seek_Error_Rate         0x002e   192   191   000    Old_age   Always       -       237
  9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       13
 10 Spin_Retry_Count        0x0032   100   253   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
 11 Calibration_Retry_Count 0x0032   100   253   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
 12 Power_Cycle_Count       0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       7
192 Power-Off_Retract_Count 0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       2
193 Load_Cycle_Count        0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       7
194 Temperature_Celsius     0x0022   123   114   000    Old_age   Always       -       29
196 Reallocated_Event_Count 0x0032   020   020   000    Old_age   Always       -       180
197 Current_Pending_Sector  0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
198 Offline_Uncorrectable   0x0030   100   253   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0
199 UDMA_CRC_Error_Count    0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
200 Multi_Zone_Error_Rate   0x0008   100   253   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0

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sudo dd conv=fdatasync if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdg bs=1M count=20000

brings

Code

dd: fdatasync für »/dev/sdg“ ist fehlgeschlagen: Eingabe-/Ausgabefehler
dd: fsync für »/dev/sdg“ ist fehlgeschlagen: Eingabe-/Ausgabefehler
20000+0 Datensätze ein
20000+0 Datensätze aus
20971520000 Bytes (21 GB) kopiert, 203,85 s, 103 MB/s

I guess best thing is sending the drive back though I own it not even 4 weeks.

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